I think the problem as a modern reader is .... that I'm a modern reader. In these books, I always want them to just ask the question or just write them a letter or something. But of course, it's totally inappropriate for you to write a letter to someone you're not engaged to. And it's inappropriate to be so direct. I would be totally frustrated in that time frame.
Could Edward really have done anything differently? I think probably not. His wearing the hair ring was probably to clue Elinor in on his being attached to someone else? She seemed confused about how he got her hair to make the ring. If she didn't give him the hair, shouldn't that have tipped her off that it was someone else's hair?
My sense was that he didn't really have the intention to stop by the cottage and instead just got caught being in the area. If he had intended to pursue Elinor, he would have come right away. I think he was trying to do his best to not lead Elinor on, while still maintaining the relationship. He was their brother in law, in fact, so a visit is appropriate in that way.
I honestly think he was doing the best he could. Truly, if he had made a commitment to another and had just broken it because something better came along, he probably wouldn't be the right person for Elinor anyway. She seems to take commitments seriously. If he had dissolved his relationship with Lucy because he liked Elinor more, and Elinor had found out, I wonder whether she would have called off the engagement herself because of his poor character.
I think the mystery of why people are acting the way they are in this book is a big part of the charm. Plus it reveals the constancy or lack thereof of Elinor and Marianne. So if it had been written differently, I am not sure I would have liked it as well.
Definitely agree that Elinor would have lost respect for him if he went back on his promise to Lucy. But I also struggle with the idea that he couldn't just TELL ELINOR. It would have saved so much heartbreak!
That point about Elinor valuing commitment and her breaking off any engagement if she found out he’d broken faith with Lucy is so interesting and insightful!
I think the best way to answer this question is to look at Edward’s own self-assessment and explanation at the end of the book (spoilers ahead!). Elinor “scolds” for the “imprudence” of spending so much time with them when he “must have felt his own inconstancy.” Edmund asserts that, initially, he trusted to the fact of his engagement to “keep my heart as safe and sacred as my honor.” Because of this, he convinces himself that his regard for Elinor is merely friendship, and it isn’t until he starts mentally comparing Lucy and Elinor that he realizes how far gone he was. At that point, he admits he was wrong to continue spending time with the Dashwoods, a wrong he justified by the “expediency” of believing “I am doing no injury to anybody but myself.” So, Edward knew (initially subconsciously and later consciously) that it was wrong to spend time with someone who he was coming to care more for than his fiancé. He didn’t have the strength of character to stay away, and convinced himself it was ok because he was the only one being hurt. But that’s a pretty big risk to take when there’s no way of knowing for sure Elinor isn’t interested/he isn’t raising expectations. And as a want to be clergyman you’d think he’d keep in mind passages about “committing adultery in the heart.” That isn’t to say I think Edward did any sort of fantasizing or deliberate acts of mental unfaithfulness; he can’t help his feelings. But as soon as they were apparent he should have left (as he owns) in order to remove a serious source of temptation to himself and potential hurt to another (Elinor).
Elise, I don't know the answer to this question. But do you think the gentry became clergy because they were Christ followers and wanted people to have a relationship with Jesus? It always seemed in these Austen books like people wanted to be clergy because it provided enough to live on, as long as the person visited those in the parish and did the service weekly. I don't know that Edward would have thought about committing adultery in his heart. Maybe you know more than I do about this. What do you think?
I think Mansfield Park is a good source of insight here. Austen often does offer us clergyman characters who seem primarily interested in boosting their finances/social status; however, Edmund Bertram genuinely wants to be a clergyman and to serve God and his parishioners. My impression regarding Austen and clergymen is that she sees them run the gamut between self-serving and virtuous/authentic.
I disagree that Edmund wanted to be a clergyman. He graduated and spent 4 or so years goofing around and not doing ANYTHING! I think he said at some point that he would have been better off if he had chosen a profession. If he had wanted to go into the clergy, wouldn't he have just done it? I think he'll be better than Mr. Collins, certainly. But I don't think he wants to be a clergyman or anything else.
You make a good point, and I think you can look at it either way with Edward. To be be fair to him, he does seem to have some preference for the church beyond mere material means/the “simplicity” of the job (if done without a sense of vocation). He says to Mrs. Dashwood at one point that he “always preferred the church” as a career choice but was dissuaded by family who did not think it “smart enough.” And I think his general character is such that he wouldn’t set out to be/desire to be a clergyman without some sense of piety/vocation.
Part I ends with the best cliffhanger, my goodness!
I think whether or not Edward's behavior can be deemed acceptable depends on his intention at the time. Acceptable if he intends to disentangle himself from his engagement to Lucy in order to be free to court Elinor more properly, and unacceptable if he has no such intention but just wants to be around her. The latter would be unfair to himself, to Elinor by increasing her attachment, and to Lucy as his future wife.
BUT I think that might just be my modern perspective. Today engagements get broken all. the. time. And it's not like a world-shattering, reputation-destroying event. I myself have been engaged three times, and I only got married the once. 🙃 So, putting myself into a culture where a secret engagement from four years ago would be considered truly binding... Perhaps I have to change my own mind from one paragraph ago to say that his behavior is absolutely unacceptable. Because if he is required by duty and honor and what-have-you to marry Lucy, then there is no reason to go out of his way to see Elinor and fan the flames of his own and her feelings; or if he must visit them because good manners say he must if he is in the same county anyway and they're his sisters inlaws or whatever, then certainly it's not okay for him to leave the distance between himself and Elinor behind after the first couple of days of the visit. Although, I suppose it does say something good about his behavior that he comes upon some extra self-awareness and leaves when he seems to be enjoying the visit most.
I’m a little late to this one but have to weigh in! Cliffhangers abound, indeed, from the revelation of Edward’s engagement to what in the world is going on with Marianne and Willoughby?? Also I was under the impression that Elinor didn’t really care for Edward, so why was she so upset about this engagement? Didn’t that get him out of her hair? Finally, I have never found myself so irritated as by the Steele way sisters!!
Forgive the typos, I have one hand in an immobilizer so I am dictating 🤣 on the other hand (pun intended) I got a lot of reading done while hanging out in urgent care this afternoon!
The Steeles are so terrible. But Elinor is upset because she does love Edward and was given plenty of reason to believe that he felt the same way. But she didn't share those feelings with the whole world like Marianne does!
I think the problem as a modern reader is .... that I'm a modern reader. In these books, I always want them to just ask the question or just write them a letter or something. But of course, it's totally inappropriate for you to write a letter to someone you're not engaged to. And it's inappropriate to be so direct. I would be totally frustrated in that time frame.
Could Edward really have done anything differently? I think probably not. His wearing the hair ring was probably to clue Elinor in on his being attached to someone else? She seemed confused about how he got her hair to make the ring. If she didn't give him the hair, shouldn't that have tipped her off that it was someone else's hair?
My sense was that he didn't really have the intention to stop by the cottage and instead just got caught being in the area. If he had intended to pursue Elinor, he would have come right away. I think he was trying to do his best to not lead Elinor on, while still maintaining the relationship. He was their brother in law, in fact, so a visit is appropriate in that way.
I honestly think he was doing the best he could. Truly, if he had made a commitment to another and had just broken it because something better came along, he probably wouldn't be the right person for Elinor anyway. She seems to take commitments seriously. If he had dissolved his relationship with Lucy because he liked Elinor more, and Elinor had found out, I wonder whether she would have called off the engagement herself because of his poor character.
I think the mystery of why people are acting the way they are in this book is a big part of the charm. Plus it reveals the constancy or lack thereof of Elinor and Marianne. So if it had been written differently, I am not sure I would have liked it as well.
Definitely agree that Elinor would have lost respect for him if he went back on his promise to Lucy. But I also struggle with the idea that he couldn't just TELL ELINOR. It would have saved so much heartbreak!
That point about Elinor valuing commitment and her breaking off any engagement if she found out he’d broken faith with Lucy is so interesting and insightful!
I think the best way to answer this question is to look at Edward’s own self-assessment and explanation at the end of the book (spoilers ahead!). Elinor “scolds” for the “imprudence” of spending so much time with them when he “must have felt his own inconstancy.” Edmund asserts that, initially, he trusted to the fact of his engagement to “keep my heart as safe and sacred as my honor.” Because of this, he convinces himself that his regard for Elinor is merely friendship, and it isn’t until he starts mentally comparing Lucy and Elinor that he realizes how far gone he was. At that point, he admits he was wrong to continue spending time with the Dashwoods, a wrong he justified by the “expediency” of believing “I am doing no injury to anybody but myself.” So, Edward knew (initially subconsciously and later consciously) that it was wrong to spend time with someone who he was coming to care more for than his fiancé. He didn’t have the strength of character to stay away, and convinced himself it was ok because he was the only one being hurt. But that’s a pretty big risk to take when there’s no way of knowing for sure Elinor isn’t interested/he isn’t raising expectations. And as a want to be clergyman you’d think he’d keep in mind passages about “committing adultery in the heart.” That isn’t to say I think Edward did any sort of fantasizing or deliberate acts of mental unfaithfulness; he can’t help his feelings. But as soon as they were apparent he should have left (as he owns) in order to remove a serious source of temptation to himself and potential hurt to another (Elinor).
Elise, I don't know the answer to this question. But do you think the gentry became clergy because they were Christ followers and wanted people to have a relationship with Jesus? It always seemed in these Austen books like people wanted to be clergy because it provided enough to live on, as long as the person visited those in the parish and did the service weekly. I don't know that Edward would have thought about committing adultery in his heart. Maybe you know more than I do about this. What do you think?
I think Mansfield Park is a good source of insight here. Austen often does offer us clergyman characters who seem primarily interested in boosting their finances/social status; however, Edmund Bertram genuinely wants to be a clergyman and to serve God and his parishioners. My impression regarding Austen and clergymen is that she sees them run the gamut between self-serving and virtuous/authentic.
I disagree that Edmund wanted to be a clergyman. He graduated and spent 4 or so years goofing around and not doing ANYTHING! I think he said at some point that he would have been better off if he had chosen a profession. If he had wanted to go into the clergy, wouldn't he have just done it? I think he'll be better than Mr. Collins, certainly. But I don't think he wants to be a clergyman or anything else.
Edmund Bertram in Mansfield Park did want to be a clergyman. Edward Ferrars in S&S is another matter!
You're right. I got the names confused in my head.
You make a good point, and I think you can look at it either way with Edward. To be be fair to him, he does seem to have some preference for the church beyond mere material means/the “simplicity” of the job (if done without a sense of vocation). He says to Mrs. Dashwood at one point that he “always preferred the church” as a career choice but was dissuaded by family who did not think it “smart enough.” And I think his general character is such that he wouldn’t set out to be/desire to be a clergyman without some sense of piety/vocation.
Part I ends with the best cliffhanger, my goodness!
I think whether or not Edward's behavior can be deemed acceptable depends on his intention at the time. Acceptable if he intends to disentangle himself from his engagement to Lucy in order to be free to court Elinor more properly, and unacceptable if he has no such intention but just wants to be around her. The latter would be unfair to himself, to Elinor by increasing her attachment, and to Lucy as his future wife.
BUT I think that might just be my modern perspective. Today engagements get broken all. the. time. And it's not like a world-shattering, reputation-destroying event. I myself have been engaged three times, and I only got married the once. 🙃 So, putting myself into a culture where a secret engagement from four years ago would be considered truly binding... Perhaps I have to change my own mind from one paragraph ago to say that his behavior is absolutely unacceptable. Because if he is required by duty and honor and what-have-you to marry Lucy, then there is no reason to go out of his way to see Elinor and fan the flames of his own and her feelings; or if he must visit them because good manners say he must if he is in the same county anyway and they're his sisters inlaws or whatever, then certainly it's not okay for him to leave the distance between himself and Elinor behind after the first couple of days of the visit. Although, I suppose it does say something good about his behavior that he comes upon some extra self-awareness and leaves when he seems to be enjoying the visit most.
Good points!
I’m a little late to this one but have to weigh in! Cliffhangers abound, indeed, from the revelation of Edward’s engagement to what in the world is going on with Marianne and Willoughby?? Also I was under the impression that Elinor didn’t really care for Edward, so why was she so upset about this engagement? Didn’t that get him out of her hair? Finally, I have never found myself so irritated as by the Steele way sisters!!
Forgive the typos, I have one hand in an immobilizer so I am dictating 🤣 on the other hand (pun intended) I got a lot of reading done while hanging out in urgent care this afternoon!
The Steeles are so terrible. But Elinor is upset because she does love Edward and was given plenty of reason to believe that he felt the same way. But she didn't share those feelings with the whole world like Marianne does!