You know, what I thought of most clearly while reading this reflection was of one particular extended family member who is annoying in similar ways to Miss Bates... with the added charm of anxiety around it, which makes this person kind of a pill to be around. And yet, like Miss Bates, this person is unfathomably generous. We all sort of have that dismissive, derisive way of talking about this person, even if not face to face. So this was quite the personal challenge. Being annoying is not a sin, indeed.
I've always thought Miss Bates was difficult, because she really is SO ANNOYING. And yet the qualities you flagged--her generosity and gratitude! That is heroism, in a person who has had so little in the way of privilege in her life. Maybe we find her annoying because she pricks our conscience.
Or maybe she's just clueless. But if so, she's clueless in the way of "bring the little children to me."
None of that has a thing to do with your question. Of course, it's appropriate for Mr. Knightley--her only clear-eyed friend--to challenge her. And he does it in the Gospel way: tell your friend in private. He doesn't humiliate her in public "so she'll know how it feels." He follows the Gospel. And it's wonderful that it works. That hardly ever works in modern life, does it? (Hello Facebook arguments.) I guess the takeaway is that challenging someone is more likely to work when there is a relationship of love and care already established.
“...challenging someone is more likely to work if there is a relationship of love and care already established.” This is perfectly said! And I’ll add, it’s the very thing that makes Mr Knightley’s reproof of Emma appropriate.
I remember so clearly seeing this scene in the theater when the Paltrow version came out. I had not read the book, and I suspect most of the audience had not either. At that time (and now) TV and movies was filled with gotcha comedy lines, where mean remarks were always laughed at. But, this scene, when Emma makes her remark, left the audience in stunned silence. Everyone felt for Miss Bates! And when Knightly corrects Emma, we all felt for her, though I think we all felt the justice of his words. Now having read all of Jane Austen (that movie led me down the path quite quickly!) I can see the great value of Knightly’s friendship and love for Emma in that one scene. The young adults in our house have all seen and loved that courageous moment of Knightly’s. True friendship!
Do you all think this picnic scene is also where both Emma and Mr Knightley discover that they are in love with the other? 🥰
Mr Knightley would not have delivered this reproof if he were not in love with her - and therefore *so* emotionally invested in her character/behavior. A parent would deliver a similar reproof, but I think even an older sibling or close friend would not go to to the effort.
For Emma’s part, her grief after the picnic is partly due to hurting Miss Bates, sure, but is just as much if not more due to her knowing how much she has disappointed Mr Knightley.
Of course Knightley has to confront her! If he doesn't, there is no story. Emma isn't prone to clear eyed self-reflection, and almost everyone else around her tends to feed into her ego rather than call her out for any of her awful behavior. And of course he confronts her because he loves her and believes she can do better - if he didn't believe that he would not have bothered - and nor would he have ever proposed to her.
If Mr. Knightly won't call her out who will? Everyone else is far too willing to affirm her in everything she does and not blame her for her mistakes. It's probably why it takes so long for Knightly's remonstrations to sink in. And I think this the first thing she does where she is being mean for meanness' sake and their is no way for other people to make excuses for her. And while Mr. Knightly has been upset with Emma before, this is the first time where he has been well and truly angry at her and gives her a justifiable earful in a way he hasn't before. Because of all this Emma finally sees her flaws and starts to change.
This scene is just such a brilliant one and one of my favorites in Austen. Mr. Knightley proves his love by choosing the good of the other before his own good. He knows he could very well cause a serious rift in his relationship with Emma (the difficulty they had in reconciling over the Robert Martin proposal debacle is proof of this), and that would be very painful to him, but he also knows that Emma needs to be checked. He believes in her ability to be better than she is so deeply, and therefore proves that he is her true friend. As pointed out by others, he handles it in a truly biblical/Christian way by taking her aside. That also is part of his teaching-Emma publicly found fault with/“reproved” Mrs. Bates; he is showing her the truly gracious and loving way to fault find with others (in private). He refuses to take the easy way, or even technically more “just” way out of giving Emma a taste of her own medicine. He is merciful even in the midst of his righteous anger.
Yes! Sometimes it is so tempting to give someone "a taste of her own medicine" when you see rudeness to someone else (it almost gives you a rationale, to stand up for someone else, not just yourself). Mr. Knightly is a gentleman though and would do that to a lady (even if her behavior had lapsed).
Everyone has shared great thoughts so I will just add that, in contrast to Mr. Knightley, Frank Churchill eggs Emma on. He is always pulling her into sly side-conversations and encouraging her to think up uncharitable theories about people. He’s like a “mean girl” you’d find in high school!
You know, what I thought of most clearly while reading this reflection was of one particular extended family member who is annoying in similar ways to Miss Bates... with the added charm of anxiety around it, which makes this person kind of a pill to be around. And yet, like Miss Bates, this person is unfathomably generous. We all sort of have that dismissive, derisive way of talking about this person, even if not face to face. So this was quite the personal challenge. Being annoying is not a sin, indeed.
I've always thought Miss Bates was difficult, because she really is SO ANNOYING. And yet the qualities you flagged--her generosity and gratitude! That is heroism, in a person who has had so little in the way of privilege in her life. Maybe we find her annoying because she pricks our conscience.
Or maybe she's just clueless. But if so, she's clueless in the way of "bring the little children to me."
None of that has a thing to do with your question. Of course, it's appropriate for Mr. Knightley--her only clear-eyed friend--to challenge her. And he does it in the Gospel way: tell your friend in private. He doesn't humiliate her in public "so she'll know how it feels." He follows the Gospel. And it's wonderful that it works. That hardly ever works in modern life, does it? (Hello Facebook arguments.) I guess the takeaway is that challenging someone is more likely to work when there is a relationship of love and care already established.
These are great thoughts. He is not at all enjoying putting her in her place. He wants the best for her and she knows it, so she has ears to hear!
Mrs Bates definitely helps us learn more patience for our annoying loved ones!
“...challenging someone is more likely to work if there is a relationship of love and care already established.” This is perfectly said! And I’ll add, it’s the very thing that makes Mr Knightley’s reproof of Emma appropriate.
I remember so clearly seeing this scene in the theater when the Paltrow version came out. I had not read the book, and I suspect most of the audience had not either. At that time (and now) TV and movies was filled with gotcha comedy lines, where mean remarks were always laughed at. But, this scene, when Emma makes her remark, left the audience in stunned silence. Everyone felt for Miss Bates! And when Knightly corrects Emma, we all felt for her, though I think we all felt the justice of his words. Now having read all of Jane Austen (that movie led me down the path quite quickly!) I can see the great value of Knightly’s friendship and love for Emma in that one scene. The young adults in our house have all seen and loved that courageous moment of Knightly’s. True friendship!
Yes! His love for her is stronger than his desire for her to be happy with him. True friendship, indeed!
Do you all think this picnic scene is also where both Emma and Mr Knightley discover that they are in love with the other? 🥰
Mr Knightley would not have delivered this reproof if he were not in love with her - and therefore *so* emotionally invested in her character/behavior. A parent would deliver a similar reproof, but I think even an older sibling or close friend would not go to to the effort.
For Emma’s part, her grief after the picnic is partly due to hurting Miss Bates, sure, but is just as much if not more due to her knowing how much she has disappointed Mr Knightley.
Oh I wonder! Maybe that is when they discover their love for each other - great point!
I definitely think this is a turning point in their relationship, they really see how much they mean to each other in this scene!
Of course Knightley has to confront her! If he doesn't, there is no story. Emma isn't prone to clear eyed self-reflection, and almost everyone else around her tends to feed into her ego rather than call her out for any of her awful behavior. And of course he confronts her because he loves her and believes she can do better - if he didn't believe that he would not have bothered - and nor would he have ever proposed to her.
I completely agree with this. When typing up my post I had to rethink what I wanted to write because I didn't want to just copy your post.
If Mr. Knightly won't call her out who will? Everyone else is far too willing to affirm her in everything she does and not blame her for her mistakes. It's probably why it takes so long for Knightly's remonstrations to sink in. And I think this the first thing she does where she is being mean for meanness' sake and their is no way for other people to make excuses for her. And while Mr. Knightly has been upset with Emma before, this is the first time where he has been well and truly angry at her and gives her a justifiable earful in a way he hasn't before. Because of all this Emma finally sees her flaws and starts to change.
True. I think she knows in her heart of hearts how very much she is in the wrong.
Really good point that this is Emma’s lowest point/first time no one can really make excuses for her. Helps to understand Knightley’s reaction better!
This scene is just such a brilliant one and one of my favorites in Austen. Mr. Knightley proves his love by choosing the good of the other before his own good. He knows he could very well cause a serious rift in his relationship with Emma (the difficulty they had in reconciling over the Robert Martin proposal debacle is proof of this), and that would be very painful to him, but he also knows that Emma needs to be checked. He believes in her ability to be better than she is so deeply, and therefore proves that he is her true friend. As pointed out by others, he handles it in a truly biblical/Christian way by taking her aside. That also is part of his teaching-Emma publicly found fault with/“reproved” Mrs. Bates; he is showing her the truly gracious and loving way to fault find with others (in private). He refuses to take the easy way, or even technically more “just” way out of giving Emma a taste of her own medicine. He is merciful even in the midst of his righteous anger.
Yes! Sometimes it is so tempting to give someone "a taste of her own medicine" when you see rudeness to someone else (it almost gives you a rationale, to stand up for someone else, not just yourself). Mr. Knightly is a gentleman though and would do that to a lady (even if her behavior had lapsed).
Everyone has shared great thoughts so I will just add that, in contrast to Mr. Knightley, Frank Churchill eggs Emma on. He is always pulling her into sly side-conversations and encouraging her to think up uncharitable theories about people. He’s like a “mean girl” you’d find in high school!