Maybe I need to work on my compassion, but I've never felt the remotest inclination to pity Willoughby. He's a jerk through and through, and he really doesn't even get what's coming to him. He ends up with the money and the estate he rode roughshod over everyone to get, and if he has a few regrets about it, big deal. Eliza's stuck with a ruined reputation and has to raise her child on her own in a time that was very unforgiving to that sort of indiscretion from a woman, and Marianne nearly dies of grief. So I'm not about to lose any sleep over the plight of the poor little rich boy who caused it all. :-)
Amen! And I almost can't believe Elinor is willing to be swayed by his, "oh I'm such a mess, I didn't mean to hurt people, but my life isnwo expensive" routine.
I think she was moved because of his charisma, which she acknowledges to herself. But she is also moved because she is a compassionate person and had real affection for him at one point. She might also pity him because she knows he will never be happy because of his weak character. He pursues whatever he thinks will bring him the most pleasure but it will never be enough.
To be fair, Willoughby doesn't know why Brandon is leaving the party. And because he is spoiled (and selfish) he can't think of a good reason why one couldn't delay leaving a party
Yes, that's true. But he does know he's seduced Brandon's ward, and to a man who had any sense of shame at all, that would seem to constitute a pretty good argument for keeping his trap shut about all things Brandon-related. And he can't even do that later on when he does know everything that happened, and is telling Elinor the story -- he has to keep accusing Brandon of being too hard on him.
And his dislike for Brandon is so interesting to me--perhaps Brandon is a reminder of Willoughby's bad deeds and Brandon exemplifies the sort of person Willoughby COULD be but isn't so he despises him?
I thought of Willoughby as the villain after watching the movie years ago, but age and the scene where he goes to speak with Elinor when Marianne is sick changed my mind. Now I think of him as rather tragic due to his selfishness and attachment to comfort.
I think the pity I felt was not so much an empathy with his stated plight of “woe is me, I caught feelings for your sister and toyed with her emotions, but my lifestyle ain’t cheap” but more like Frodo for Gollum of how sad that he is so wretched to think that pathetic excuse should count for anything, that he has no remorse and doesn’t understand the gravity of his selfish actions on the women he’s encountered.
I wish he got more comeuppance too but from the view of salvation he’s a tragic character because he doesn’t realize his need of repentance.
I think Lucy is the real villain. She is purposefully cruel to Elinor, time and time again. Also the manipulation of both Edward and Robert. And her ceaseless flattery of anyone she thinks can help her get ahead.
As far as I am aware, Lucy never knew of Elinor's feelings for Edward. Without knowing that, is she being cruel? Edward seems like a catch and she is engaged to him. As far as Lucy knows, Elinor just thinks of him as a brother-in-law. Right?
I really appreciate you guys helping me see this differently. I had thought Lucy as just being self-centered. But you guys are probably right. I may have to reread it with different eyes now.
Really? I got the sense she was totally unaware of the feelings between Elinor and Edward. I thought she confided in Elinor because she wanted to pump Elinor for information about Mrs. Ferrars and Elinor would have met her. Do you think Edward let on to Lucy that he liked Elinor on one of his visits?
Yes, it's my understanding that the only reason Lucy told Elinor was to plant her flag and gauge her attachment to Edward (she already suspected him of liking Elinor). Lucy is intentionally cruel.
When I had only watched the movie, I got the impression that Lucy just wanted someone to confide in, and it was this painful irony that she chose Elinor, but in the book it’s clear that Elinor at least thinks that Lucy is motivated by a suspicion of a regard between Edward and Elinor.
I’m nominating Sir John Willoughby as the hero , He offers the Dashwoods a home and introduces them to Brandon and takes everyone into his warm, if chaotic, family life, his mother in law, his widowed cousin and her daughters and any lonely bachelors around. And he seems to be a good landlord and kind to his dogs. He might be rather tactless but his open hearted generosity is the total antithesis of John Dashwood and his sticky wallet wife
I agree with the reader who wrote that vices are the true villain in this story. They are on glorious display in this book. I love that vices and their effects are so clearly portrayed in this story. In modern literature, vices are often presented as virtue and as such no punishment is normally present.
I’d argue Willoughby is the villain as his vices acted out have the most grave consequences for other people and lead to the most scandal.
On the other hand, I’d argue Elinor is the hero as her ability to practice virtue is the most supportive of encouraging and growing virtue in herself and others.
Also, was anyone else completely unmoved by Willoughby’s apology? I was completely confounded at how Elinor was moved to pity for him. His contrition left much to be desired.
This is a good point. He can only navigate the world according to his own pleasure or misery. Marianne being sad is unpleasant to him. He dislikes his own experience of guilt--his first concern is never HER.
I think Colonel Brandon has to be the hero-his willingness to aid the Dashwoods regardless of whether or not he will be “rewarded” with the affection of Marianne or not, his helping Edward just because he feels bad for how Edward’s family is behaving and he admires Edward being honorable in his treatment of Lucy, and how he behaves toward Eliza and Eliza’s mother (trying to stay away to give the love of his life a chance at a happy marriage with his own brother, finding her when she fell and taking care of the daughter as his own). As for the villain, I think more than a specific human person, Austen tends to have vices as the villains. Few characters are outright bad enough or unlikeable enough to be villains (I think Mrs. Norris in Mansfield Park and Mrs. Elton in Emma are as close as she gets) Selfishness and self-indulgence rate high as the ruiners of happiness in this novel, for Marianne, Willoughby, Lucy, and Edmund selfishness/self-indulgence are at the root of their poor choices/the ways they hurt others. Lucy is probably as close to a villain as this book gets because she’s selfish without having much in the way of self-awareness, charm, or kindness the way the other “selfish” characters have
I think it’s a testament to Jane Austen’s brilliant characterization that there are so many viable options for “hero” and “villain”. I definitely lean more toward labeling Willoughby as weak and selfish rather than a fully black-hearted bad guy, but I would say that he, Lucy, Fanny, and Mrs. Ferrars are all hardcore vying for the title of villain.
While there are several heroic characters, particularly Colonel Brandon, I’m going to go with Elinor as my favorite pick for the hero(ine). Colonel Brandon fulfills more of the typical heroic actions throughout the plot, but Elinor’s steadfastness in looking after her family’s financial and social well-being, her respect for the privacy and dignity of others - even those who are actively trying to hurt her - and her role in caring for and eventually guiding Marianne into growth all fit into a quiet, gentle type of hero. It is even Elinor, rather than Marianne, who has the final, climactic confrontation with Willoughby. I’m terms of a male hero of the story, I would have to say it’s Colonel Brandon, but in terms of the overall hero of the novel, I’m definitely Team Elinor.
To me, Willoughby seems more weak than wicked in comparison to Wickham, whose cruelty and charm near sociopathic levels, in my not-a-trained-psychologist opinion, in Pride and Prejudice.
Oh interesting thought re: weakness vs wickedness. This is how I've always seen John amd Fanny Dashwood - though I wouldn't consider either the main villain- one too easily swayed and the other more malicious. Through this lens, I agree that Willoughby doesn't seem as scheming and awful as Wickham. But the wake of Willoughbys actions - Eliza, child, etc- seems to me more destructive than Wickham's. (Maybe because he was stopped in his tracks by Mr Darcy?)
I vote that Fanny is the villain. She persuaded the brother to send the stepmother and half sisters away with almost nothing. If he had provided a more generous dowry and introduced the sisters appropriately, they would have all made good matches.
I vote that Lucy and Willoughby are the heroine and hero. Without their selfishness, Edward and Marianne would have gotten into poor matches that would have caused lifelong misery for all 4. Perhaps Lucy and Robert are alike enough to make a go of it. Willoughby's wife knew what she was marrying after the party; with her money, she could have blown him off if she wanted to. So their acting on their own selfishness maximized the happiness of everyone else.
What an interesting way to look at Willoughby and Lucy!! And I agree about Fanny. The injustice of her opening conversation with her husband in the first chapter and the selfishness she displays makes her a true villain!
Yes!! I am sure that if Elinor were to go to Sir John or Mrs Jennings and say that she was mortified by their Mr F jokes and found them upsetting they would be horrified while Lucy wouldn’t give a stuff.
They might be insensitive but neither Sir John nor Mrs Jennings are ever ill intentioned .
By the way , I think I’m a bit of a Mrs Dashwood sticky wallet myself as I’ve been enjoying this thread so much for free so I’m going to take out a paid subscription
Does there have to be one villain? I would say Willoughby is definitely a villain, even if what he does is out of weakness of character, rather than maliciousness. Wickham who is surely a villain pursues Georgiana not just for her wealth, but also to revenge himself on Darcy. Georgiana is saved from the misery that would come from marriage to such a man, but she is left heartbroken and with a loss of innocence and broken trust. Willoughby is not guided by revenge or malice like Wickham, purely by self centeredness, but we can judge his actions by their fruits. He leaves two women heartbroken, one would be destitute but for her friends but is relegated to a different kind of life than she would have had by his abandonment, and he is a terrible husband to the woman he marries. He doesn’t get a pass just because he ‘didn’t mean to’. He had every opportunity to make amends for his mistakes and never did. Eleanor does feel pity for him, but is able to acknowledge that much of that is a result of his charisma. She tells Marianne, and Marianne is able to see, that Willoughby was always led by selfishness, even when he had developed feelings for Marianne he was always thinking of his own happiness and not hers. I have no pity for someone who is living with the natural consequences of his actions, but can only feel bad for himself rather than looking at ways to change his life and to make amends.
Maybe I need to work on my compassion, but I've never felt the remotest inclination to pity Willoughby. He's a jerk through and through, and he really doesn't even get what's coming to him. He ends up with the money and the estate he rode roughshod over everyone to get, and if he has a few regrets about it, big deal. Eliza's stuck with a ruined reputation and has to raise her child on her own in a time that was very unforgiving to that sort of indiscretion from a woman, and Marianne nearly dies of grief. So I'm not about to lose any sleep over the plight of the poor little rich boy who caused it all. :-)
Amen! And I almost can't believe Elinor is willing to be swayed by his, "oh I'm such a mess, I didn't mean to hurt people, but my life isnwo expensive" routine.
Yes! I can hardly believe it either!
I think she was moved because of his charisma, which she acknowledges to herself. But she is also moved because she is a compassionate person and had real affection for him at one point. She might also pity him because she knows he will never be happy because of his weak character. He pursues whatever he thinks will bring him the most pleasure but it will never be enough.
Oh, and let's not forget that Willoughby mocks Brandon for leaving an outing to DEAL WITH THE DAMAGE WILLOUGHBY CAUSED. Yuck.
To be fair, Willoughby doesn't know why Brandon is leaving the party. And because he is spoiled (and selfish) he can't think of a good reason why one couldn't delay leaving a party
Yes, that's true. But he does know he's seduced Brandon's ward, and to a man who had any sense of shame at all, that would seem to constitute a pretty good argument for keeping his trap shut about all things Brandon-related. And he can't even do that later on when he does know everything that happened, and is telling Elinor the story -- he has to keep accusing Brandon of being too hard on him.
And his dislike for Brandon is so interesting to me--perhaps Brandon is a reminder of Willoughby's bad deeds and Brandon exemplifies the sort of person Willoughby COULD be but isn't so he despises him?
That makes sense!
I guess I missed the fact that he knew Eliza was Brandon's ward at the time of the incident!
I thought of Willoughby as the villain after watching the movie years ago, but age and the scene where he goes to speak with Elinor when Marianne is sick changed my mind. Now I think of him as rather tragic due to his selfishness and attachment to comfort.
I think the pity I felt was not so much an empathy with his stated plight of “woe is me, I caught feelings for your sister and toyed with her emotions, but my lifestyle ain’t cheap” but more like Frodo for Gollum of how sad that he is so wretched to think that pathetic excuse should count for anything, that he has no remorse and doesn’t understand the gravity of his selfish actions on the women he’s encountered.
I wish he got more comeuppance too but from the view of salvation he’s a tragic character because he doesn’t realize his need of repentance.
That's really well put!
I think Lucy is the real villain. She is purposefully cruel to Elinor, time and time again. Also the manipulation of both Edward and Robert. And her ceaseless flattery of anyone she thinks can help her get ahead.
So do I! She seems utterly heartless
As far as I am aware, Lucy never knew of Elinor's feelings for Edward. Without knowing that, is she being cruel? Edward seems like a catch and she is engaged to him. As far as Lucy knows, Elinor just thinks of him as a brother-in-law. Right?
It is obvious that she SUSPECTS Elinor and Edward like each others which is why she “confides” in Elinor in the first place.
I really appreciate you guys helping me see this differently. I had thought Lucy as just being self-centered. But you guys are probably right. I may have to reread it with different eyes now.
Really? I got the sense she was totally unaware of the feelings between Elinor and Edward. I thought she confided in Elinor because she wanted to pump Elinor for information about Mrs. Ferrars and Elinor would have met her. Do you think Edward let on to Lucy that he liked Elinor on one of his visits?
Yes, it's my understanding that the only reason Lucy told Elinor was to plant her flag and gauge her attachment to Edward (she already suspected him of liking Elinor). Lucy is intentionally cruel.
Even more cruel to Edward as not only does she not love him but knows he does not want to marry her .
I hadn't seen it that way. Thanks for the insight.
When I had only watched the movie, I got the impression that Lucy just wanted someone to confide in, and it was this painful irony that she chose Elinor, but in the book it’s clear that Elinor at least thinks that Lucy is motivated by a suspicion of a regard between Edward and Elinor.
Lucy was staying with the Middletons who at the time were teasing Elinor about Edward. That would be enough for Lucy to stake her claim
I hadn't thought of it that way. Thanks for the insight.
I’m nominating Sir John Willoughby as the hero , He offers the Dashwoods a home and introduces them to Brandon and takes everyone into his warm, if chaotic, family life, his mother in law, his widowed cousin and her daughters and any lonely bachelors around. And he seems to be a good landlord and kind to his dogs. He might be rather tactless but his open hearted generosity is the total antithesis of John Dashwood and his sticky wallet wife
I like this. Sir John is a bit clueless sometimes but he's generous and well-intentioned.
That’s a fun take. I can buy that for sure
Yikes!!! Meant Middleton !! Sir John Middleton
Didn’t even notice you wrote Willoughby instead, totally knew what you meant! Also love the “sticky wallet wife” description
I agree with the reader who wrote that vices are the true villain in this story. They are on glorious display in this book. I love that vices and their effects are so clearly portrayed in this story. In modern literature, vices are often presented as virtue and as such no punishment is normally present.
I’d argue Willoughby is the villain as his vices acted out have the most grave consequences for other people and lead to the most scandal.
On the other hand, I’d argue Elinor is the hero as her ability to practice virtue is the most supportive of encouraging and growing virtue in herself and others.
Also, was anyone else completely unmoved by Willoughby’s apology? I was completely confounded at how Elinor was moved to pity for him. His contrition left much to be desired.
Agreed. His apology wasn’t really an “I messed up and I’m sorry” but was more of an “I’m miserable now because of my choices so pity me.”
This is a good point. He can only navigate the world according to his own pleasure or misery. Marianne being sad is unpleasant to him. He dislikes his own experience of guilt--his first concern is never HER.
I think Colonel Brandon has to be the hero-his willingness to aid the Dashwoods regardless of whether or not he will be “rewarded” with the affection of Marianne or not, his helping Edward just because he feels bad for how Edward’s family is behaving and he admires Edward being honorable in his treatment of Lucy, and how he behaves toward Eliza and Eliza’s mother (trying to stay away to give the love of his life a chance at a happy marriage with his own brother, finding her when she fell and taking care of the daughter as his own). As for the villain, I think more than a specific human person, Austen tends to have vices as the villains. Few characters are outright bad enough or unlikeable enough to be villains (I think Mrs. Norris in Mansfield Park and Mrs. Elton in Emma are as close as she gets) Selfishness and self-indulgence rate high as the ruiners of happiness in this novel, for Marianne, Willoughby, Lucy, and Edmund selfishness/self-indulgence are at the root of their poor choices/the ways they hurt others. Lucy is probably as close to a villain as this book gets because she’s selfish without having much in the way of self-awareness, charm, or kindness the way the other “selfish” characters have
I love your point about vices being the true villains in most Austen novels - so well put!
Thank you!!
Great insight. I agree!
I think it’s a testament to Jane Austen’s brilliant characterization that there are so many viable options for “hero” and “villain”. I definitely lean more toward labeling Willoughby as weak and selfish rather than a fully black-hearted bad guy, but I would say that he, Lucy, Fanny, and Mrs. Ferrars are all hardcore vying for the title of villain.
While there are several heroic characters, particularly Colonel Brandon, I’m going to go with Elinor as my favorite pick for the hero(ine). Colonel Brandon fulfills more of the typical heroic actions throughout the plot, but Elinor’s steadfastness in looking after her family’s financial and social well-being, her respect for the privacy and dignity of others - even those who are actively trying to hurt her - and her role in caring for and eventually guiding Marianne into growth all fit into a quiet, gentle type of hero. It is even Elinor, rather than Marianne, who has the final, climactic confrontation with Willoughby. I’m terms of a male hero of the story, I would have to say it’s Colonel Brandon, but in terms of the overall hero of the novel, I’m definitely Team Elinor.
To me, Willoughby seems more weak than wicked in comparison to Wickham, whose cruelty and charm near sociopathic levels, in my not-a-trained-psychologist opinion, in Pride and Prejudice.
Oh interesting thought re: weakness vs wickedness. This is how I've always seen John amd Fanny Dashwood - though I wouldn't consider either the main villain- one too easily swayed and the other more malicious. Through this lens, I agree that Willoughby doesn't seem as scheming and awful as Wickham. But the wake of Willoughbys actions - Eliza, child, etc- seems to me more destructive than Wickham's. (Maybe because he was stopped in his tracks by Mr Darcy?)
Yes! Team Elinor.
I vote that Fanny is the villain. She persuaded the brother to send the stepmother and half sisters away with almost nothing. If he had provided a more generous dowry and introduced the sisters appropriately, they would have all made good matches.
I vote that Lucy and Willoughby are the heroine and hero. Without their selfishness, Edward and Marianne would have gotten into poor matches that would have caused lifelong misery for all 4. Perhaps Lucy and Robert are alike enough to make a go of it. Willoughby's wife knew what she was marrying after the party; with her money, she could have blown him off if she wanted to. So their acting on their own selfishness maximized the happiness of everyone else.
What an interesting way to look at Willoughby and Lucy!! And I agree about Fanny. The injustice of her opening conversation with her husband in the first chapter and the selfishness she displays makes her a true villain!
Yes!! I am sure that if Elinor were to go to Sir John or Mrs Jennings and say that she was mortified by their Mr F jokes and found them upsetting they would be horrified while Lucy wouldn’t give a stuff.
They might be insensitive but neither Sir John nor Mrs Jennings are ever ill intentioned .
By the way , I think I’m a bit of a Mrs Dashwood sticky wallet myself as I’ve been enjoying this thread so much for free so I’m going to take out a paid subscription
Does there have to be one villain? I would say Willoughby is definitely a villain, even if what he does is out of weakness of character, rather than maliciousness. Wickham who is surely a villain pursues Georgiana not just for her wealth, but also to revenge himself on Darcy. Georgiana is saved from the misery that would come from marriage to such a man, but she is left heartbroken and with a loss of innocence and broken trust. Willoughby is not guided by revenge or malice like Wickham, purely by self centeredness, but we can judge his actions by their fruits. He leaves two women heartbroken, one would be destitute but for her friends but is relegated to a different kind of life than she would have had by his abandonment, and he is a terrible husband to the woman he marries. He doesn’t get a pass just because he ‘didn’t mean to’. He had every opportunity to make amends for his mistakes and never did. Eleanor does feel pity for him, but is able to acknowledge that much of that is a result of his charisma. She tells Marianne, and Marianne is able to see, that Willoughby was always led by selfishness, even when he had developed feelings for Marianne he was always thinking of his own happiness and not hers. I have no pity for someone who is living with the natural consequences of his actions, but can only feel bad for himself rather than looking at ways to change his life and to make amends.