Fully agree, Haley. I think the exemplar for marriage in Pride and Prejudice is the Gardiners, Mr. Gardiner being Mrs. Bennet's brother, which supports your suggestion that Mrs. Bennet's faults were not totally inborn but have been exacerbated by her marriage to a man who does nothing to compensate for them.
I agree! Austen offers many different kinds of marriages for us to consider and the Gardiners and the Crofts from Persuasion are some of the best ones!
I wonder if Jane and Bingley’s fault is an incorrect application of meekness? Jane seems to harbor a false sense of humility which allows her to be walked on and over and Bingley seems to have an aversion to making big decisions on his own which comes across as a combination of laziness and indecision. Looking forward to hearing what others think!
I have thought the same about Mrs. Bennett. Their daughters' futures depend on them marrying well. As for Jane and Bingley, their flaw is their passiveness. It's been awhile since I read the book, but do either of them at any point in the story stand up for themselves?
I just had a thought about the Bennetts that really needs more space than a comment would allow, but given how after Elizabeth each daughter seems to grow progressively sillier, I wonder how the stress of the situation affected Mr and Mrs Bennett. Elizabeth and Jane are both perfectly reasonable people, but maybe by the time Mary came, Mr. Bennett was beginning to realize that they might have a problem on their hands and disengaged from the family a little more with each daughter. And Mrs. Bennett didn't have the ability to handle the situation on her own as her husband became more distant with each daughter.
I definitely think that’s true. I was surprised in my most recent reread of P&P (I hadn’t read it in years) how much I disliked Mr. Bennett, and for that reason. Many readers rightly look to Mrs. Bennett to explain Lydia’s choices and behavior but I noticed Austen goes out of her way to show how Mr. Bennett failed her too.
What a brilliant thought; I never considered it but it makes sense. You can also throw in there the idea that historically, women tended to be blamed for not not producing sons. So you have to wonder too what sort of societal pressure/judgement Mrs. Bennett faced too
I agree! I think Mr. Bennet made more of an effort with his first two kids and then checked out and hid in his study instead of guiding the last three!
I've been giving this easy to much thought, but it also might explain something about Mary if she was aware enough to see that things were different with Jane and Elizabeth and decided to try to be smart enough to win her father's attention/affection.
I need someone who is a better writer than I am to write this story.
Now that I am a mother, I find myself generally becoming more and more sympathetic to the less than ideal mother characters in books I enjoyed when I was younger. Mrs. Bennett's anxiety is REAL, and out of the two parents, she is the one taking active measures to resolve the situation. Yes, they are ridiculous, but they reflect what she knows and you can only do as well as what you know, especially when others around you aren't helping.
Agreed with previous comments about Jane and Bingley’s “flaws.” Like Lizzie and Darcy, their flaws are good character traits taken to an extreme-they lack the balance or “happy golden mean” that would save them from the sorrow they experience. Jane’s belief in the goodness of others goes so far as to blind her to those who are actively hurting her (Caroline Bingley) and will blind her to those who can hurt her loved ones (Wickham). Her humility prevents her from believing that Bingley loves her (and while we today would like her to “go get him” and/or confront him, not really an option for that time period). Bingley’s humility and simplicity (he is clearly stated to be less clever and intelligent then Darcy) are not bad in and of themselves (after all, Darcy’s superior understanding is a source of the pride that causes him so much grief in his pursuit of Elizabeth) but when they prevent him from having the spine to stand up for himself and/or try to actually form a judgement for himself about Jane, they become problems. In a way, the Jane/Elizabeth and Bingley/Darcy dynamic is one where each pair needs more of what their counterpart has. Elizabeth needs some of Jane’s willingness to see the good in others (like Darcy) and humility (she berates herself on her pride in her judgement completely blinded her to Darcy and Wickham’s true nature) and Jane needs some of Lizzie’s ability to see the flaws of others and her confidence. Bingley needs some of Darcy’s self-confidence and trust in himself, Darcy needs more of Bingley’s warmth and humility (he later says Elizabeth properly humbled him/that that was necessary).
Absolutely! It's a matter of certain qualities being exaggerated in Jane and Bingley so that instead of being good qualities, they've become negative and clouds their judgement.
Yes, I completely agree, and also find the older I get, the more sympathy I have for Mrs. B. After all, it's not like she's an actually BAD person; just a mite (or maybe more than a mite) silly. I used to skip over a portion of P&P where Austen really goes into this, when Lizzie realizes how much blame her father has in not even trying to make the marriage work, and what's more, openly making fun of Mrs. B. in front of her own children; but now I love it. For me it just shows what a master of subtlety Austen really is, and how even-handed she is towards her characters. While not being a sentimentalist, she does paint, in my opinion, an ultimately compassionate portrait of human nature.
Yes! We see a lot of the dynamics through Lizzy's eyes and while she has great affection for her father, she sees his flaws. I think we are supposed to feel the same way (warm but critical!)
I think their character flaws are a lack of communication and making assumptions about the other. Had Mr. Bingley been upfront with Jane about his interest in her, and/or had Jane been more clear about her feelings for him, they would have been able to avoid a lot of their heartache. It takes Mr. Darcy & Lizzie to figure out the issue and talk about it for them to get together, if I’m recalling the story correctly.
It’s hard for me to draw a line between *personality differences* and *character flaws*. Jane believes the best of people, but does she take it to the extreme of lacking discernment? Bingley acts with spontaneity and values his friends’ perspectives, but does that necessarily mean he’s flighty and spineless? If we’re looking for character flaws, I’d be inclined to say yes, yes, and yes--but this could well be because of my own bent toward the opposite flaws of cynicism, rigidity, and stubborn independence.
Jane and Mr. Bingley are perfectly nice and sweet, qualities which, on their own, make for a rather boring read. I've always loved Jane Austen's ridiculous characters - they're my favorites. And Allison Steadman's characterization is the penultimate. But looking more deeply you do begin to notice traits that are more insidious, such as Mr. Bennett's ridiculing Mrs. B in front of her daughters, and even making light of the circumstances the girls find themselves in. It makes you wonder how Jane's brothers treated her and Cassandra...
Bingley exhibits some of the persuadability of Anne Elliot - he’s a good guy and loves Jane but is talked out of marrying her by his caring friends and relations in spite of his better judgment.
Meanwhile Jane seems pretty saintly but has a bit of Catherine Moreland in her inability to assess the characters of people she wants to like. It’s harder to blame Jane because it seems like her conviction of the goodness of others is real conviction, not just youthful ignorance, but if she’d been more on her guard with Caroline Bingley and consequently more assertive with Bingley, maybe he wouldn’t have been so easily dissuaded.
Also, with all due caveats for cultural norms that might have made this implausible, I do think she had some responsibility in her own family as the oldest child (and one with some inborn sense, it seems) to check her parents’ frivolity and irresponsibility and ensure her sisters were raised to a slightly better standard. Maybe this is too much to expect, but it is grating on reread that she and Lizzy seem content to live in their own bubble of good sense and intellect, and leave their sisters to be silly, uneducated flirts.
I’m convinced we are only so interested in Jane and bingley because EVERYONE ELSE in the story will not stop talking about how great they are together. They are both so “mild” and indecisive in their own lives all the time that if everyone else stopped trying to get them together, I’m not sure they’d make the decision themselves 🫣
It is interesting to look at Mrs B in a different light. I wonder about Mr B. He called on Mr Bingly without telling his wife and daughters. Did he have other things going on that nobody knew about as far as taking care of his family?
I've also thought that Bingley's flaw is being too easily swayed by the others who don't want him to end up with Jane.
Random question, I think Mr. And Mrs. Bennett don't have first names in the book, right? They never seem to address each other by first name. Is that a time-period cultural thing or an emotional distance thing?
It's a time-period thing, I believe! But sometimes Austen does have characters call each other by first name to show intimacy (Darcy saying, "dearest, loveliest Elizabeth" etc)
That makes sense. I found this video about names in Jane Austen's time. It's pretty interesting how they were generally more formal than we are now, and that there was a whole etiquette to using people's names.
Okay, so apparently I can't read very well, because I read "Chapters 1-2" on the schedule and am now ten chapters behind. Oops! Luckily, I've read it before!
I have generalized anxiety disorder and am generally very empathetic to Mrs. Bennett. I'm already worried about my kids making "good" marriages and the oldest is four!!
But one thing I love about the Austen books I've read this far is that every single character is flawed. Bingley is flighty and unreliable and overly emotional and trusts his friend's judgment over his own (perhaps because he doesn't have much of his own?) and Jane is... really, very sweet, but there is an age past which, for me, naivete just isn't that cute anymore, and Jane is definitely past it.
I have always felt Mrs. Bennett is judged too harshly and Mr. Bennett too lightly. Mr. Bennett wasn’t a very good father to most of his daughters, and he stoked the pride in Elizabeth. I have always seen Mrs. Bennett as a silly person who probably has also gone a little crazier raising 5 children. Now that I’m raising 6 young children with another on the way, I am very inclined to agree that Mrs. Bennett’s nerves are on edge even without the financial problems.
I do think Jane’s inability to act for herself is a flaw or at least very annoying. I do agree with another comment that Jane seems to suffer from a false humility that keeps her almost helpless. We don’t get to know Bingley as personally, but his haste to leave the woman he had affections for was flawed. He didn’t even bother to ask her about her feelings.
Jane and Bingley are both just boring, haha. And also really easily led by others (Bingley left town without a word because Darcy and his sisters didn't want him to marry Jane, who he's supposedly in love with?! Please 🙄). And Jane has so little confidence about what she actually wants that Bingley doesn't even know for sure she's interested!
I completely agree with the “just boring” comment! I always thought Austen set them up as lightweight foils for Lizzy and Darcy, nothing more. You can definitely tease out some character “deficiencies”, already listed by others in this thread. But I would not go so far as to call them “flaws”.
Fully agree, Haley. I think the exemplar for marriage in Pride and Prejudice is the Gardiners, Mr. Gardiner being Mrs. Bennet's brother, which supports your suggestion that Mrs. Bennet's faults were not totally inborn but have been exacerbated by her marriage to a man who does nothing to compensate for them.
I agree! Austen offers many different kinds of marriages for us to consider and the Gardiners and the Crofts from Persuasion are some of the best ones!
I wonder if Jane and Bingley’s fault is an incorrect application of meekness? Jane seems to harbor a false sense of humility which allows her to be walked on and over and Bingley seems to have an aversion to making big decisions on his own which comes across as a combination of laziness and indecision. Looking forward to hearing what others think!
I have thought the same about Mrs. Bennett. Their daughters' futures depend on them marrying well. As for Jane and Bingley, their flaw is their passiveness. It's been awhile since I read the book, but do either of them at any point in the story stand up for themselves?
I just had a thought about the Bennetts that really needs more space than a comment would allow, but given how after Elizabeth each daughter seems to grow progressively sillier, I wonder how the stress of the situation affected Mr and Mrs Bennett. Elizabeth and Jane are both perfectly reasonable people, but maybe by the time Mary came, Mr. Bennett was beginning to realize that they might have a problem on their hands and disengaged from the family a little more with each daughter. And Mrs. Bennett didn't have the ability to handle the situation on her own as her husband became more distant with each daughter.
I definitely think that’s true. I was surprised in my most recent reread of P&P (I hadn’t read it in years) how much I disliked Mr. Bennett, and for that reason. Many readers rightly look to Mrs. Bennett to explain Lydia’s choices and behavior but I noticed Austen goes out of her way to show how Mr. Bennett failed her too.
What a brilliant thought; I never considered it but it makes sense. You can also throw in there the idea that historically, women tended to be blamed for not not producing sons. So you have to wonder too what sort of societal pressure/judgement Mrs. Bennett faced too
I agree! I think Mr. Bennet made more of an effort with his first two kids and then checked out and hid in his study instead of guiding the last three!
I've been giving this easy to much thought, but it also might explain something about Mary if she was aware enough to see that things were different with Jane and Elizabeth and decided to try to be smart enough to win her father's attention/affection.
I need someone who is a better writer than I am to write this story.
Now that I am a mother, I find myself generally becoming more and more sympathetic to the less than ideal mother characters in books I enjoyed when I was younger. Mrs. Bennett's anxiety is REAL, and out of the two parents, she is the one taking active measures to resolve the situation. Yes, they are ridiculous, but they reflect what she knows and you can only do as well as what you know, especially when others around you aren't helping.
Agreed with previous comments about Jane and Bingley’s “flaws.” Like Lizzie and Darcy, their flaws are good character traits taken to an extreme-they lack the balance or “happy golden mean” that would save them from the sorrow they experience. Jane’s belief in the goodness of others goes so far as to blind her to those who are actively hurting her (Caroline Bingley) and will blind her to those who can hurt her loved ones (Wickham). Her humility prevents her from believing that Bingley loves her (and while we today would like her to “go get him” and/or confront him, not really an option for that time period). Bingley’s humility and simplicity (he is clearly stated to be less clever and intelligent then Darcy) are not bad in and of themselves (after all, Darcy’s superior understanding is a source of the pride that causes him so much grief in his pursuit of Elizabeth) but when they prevent him from having the spine to stand up for himself and/or try to actually form a judgement for himself about Jane, they become problems. In a way, the Jane/Elizabeth and Bingley/Darcy dynamic is one where each pair needs more of what their counterpart has. Elizabeth needs some of Jane’s willingness to see the good in others (like Darcy) and humility (she berates herself on her pride in her judgement completely blinded her to Darcy and Wickham’s true nature) and Jane needs some of Lizzie’s ability to see the flaws of others and her confidence. Bingley needs some of Darcy’s self-confidence and trust in himself, Darcy needs more of Bingley’s warmth and humility (he later says Elizabeth properly humbled him/that that was necessary).
Absolutely! It's a matter of certain qualities being exaggerated in Jane and Bingley so that instead of being good qualities, they've become negative and clouds their judgement.
Love this! Spot on
Yes, I completely agree, and also find the older I get, the more sympathy I have for Mrs. B. After all, it's not like she's an actually BAD person; just a mite (or maybe more than a mite) silly. I used to skip over a portion of P&P where Austen really goes into this, when Lizzie realizes how much blame her father has in not even trying to make the marriage work, and what's more, openly making fun of Mrs. B. in front of her own children; but now I love it. For me it just shows what a master of subtlety Austen really is, and how even-handed she is towards her characters. While not being a sentimentalist, she does paint, in my opinion, an ultimately compassionate portrait of human nature.
Yes! We see a lot of the dynamics through Lizzy's eyes and while she has great affection for her father, she sees his flaws. I think we are supposed to feel the same way (warm but critical!)
I think their character flaws are a lack of communication and making assumptions about the other. Had Mr. Bingley been upfront with Jane about his interest in her, and/or had Jane been more clear about her feelings for him, they would have been able to avoid a lot of their heartache. It takes Mr. Darcy & Lizzie to figure out the issue and talk about it for them to get together, if I’m recalling the story correctly.
It’s hard for me to draw a line between *personality differences* and *character flaws*. Jane believes the best of people, but does she take it to the extreme of lacking discernment? Bingley acts with spontaneity and values his friends’ perspectives, but does that necessarily mean he’s flighty and spineless? If we’re looking for character flaws, I’d be inclined to say yes, yes, and yes--but this could well be because of my own bent toward the opposite flaws of cynicism, rigidity, and stubborn independence.
Jane and Mr. Bingley are perfectly nice and sweet, qualities which, on their own, make for a rather boring read. I've always loved Jane Austen's ridiculous characters - they're my favorites. And Allison Steadman's characterization is the penultimate. But looking more deeply you do begin to notice traits that are more insidious, such as Mr. Bennett's ridiculing Mrs. B in front of her daughters, and even making light of the circumstances the girls find themselves in. It makes you wonder how Jane's brothers treated her and Cassandra...
Bingley exhibits some of the persuadability of Anne Elliot - he’s a good guy and loves Jane but is talked out of marrying her by his caring friends and relations in spite of his better judgment.
Meanwhile Jane seems pretty saintly but has a bit of Catherine Moreland in her inability to assess the characters of people she wants to like. It’s harder to blame Jane because it seems like her conviction of the goodness of others is real conviction, not just youthful ignorance, but if she’d been more on her guard with Caroline Bingley and consequently more assertive with Bingley, maybe he wouldn’t have been so easily dissuaded.
Also, with all due caveats for cultural norms that might have made this implausible, I do think she had some responsibility in her own family as the oldest child (and one with some inborn sense, it seems) to check her parents’ frivolity and irresponsibility and ensure her sisters were raised to a slightly better standard. Maybe this is too much to expect, but it is grating on reread that she and Lizzy seem content to live in their own bubble of good sense and intellect, and leave their sisters to be silly, uneducated flirts.
(No disrespect to flirts. I won biggest flirt in high school so I get what its like to be a silly 17 year old 😂)
I’m convinced we are only so interested in Jane and bingley because EVERYONE ELSE in the story will not stop talking about how great they are together. They are both so “mild” and indecisive in their own lives all the time that if everyone else stopped trying to get them together, I’m not sure they’d make the decision themselves 🫣
It is interesting to look at Mrs B in a different light. I wonder about Mr B. He called on Mr Bingly without telling his wife and daughters. Did he have other things going on that nobody knew about as far as taking care of his family?
I've also thought that Bingley's flaw is being too easily swayed by the others who don't want him to end up with Jane.
Random question, I think Mr. And Mrs. Bennett don't have first names in the book, right? They never seem to address each other by first name. Is that a time-period cultural thing or an emotional distance thing?
How do you find the chat in the app?
It's a time-period thing, I believe! But sometimes Austen does have characters call each other by first name to show intimacy (Darcy saying, "dearest, loveliest Elizabeth" etc)
That makes sense. I found this video about names in Jane Austen's time. It's pretty interesting how they were generally more formal than we are now, and that there was a whole etiquette to using people's names.
https://youtu.be/WNyexfFz768
(I found the chat button lol)
Okay, so apparently I can't read very well, because I read "Chapters 1-2" on the schedule and am now ten chapters behind. Oops! Luckily, I've read it before!
I have generalized anxiety disorder and am generally very empathetic to Mrs. Bennett. I'm already worried about my kids making "good" marriages and the oldest is four!!
But one thing I love about the Austen books I've read this far is that every single character is flawed. Bingley is flighty and unreliable and overly emotional and trusts his friend's judgment over his own (perhaps because he doesn't have much of his own?) and Jane is... really, very sweet, but there is an age past which, for me, naivete just isn't that cute anymore, and Jane is definitely past it.
I have always felt Mrs. Bennett is judged too harshly and Mr. Bennett too lightly. Mr. Bennett wasn’t a very good father to most of his daughters, and he stoked the pride in Elizabeth. I have always seen Mrs. Bennett as a silly person who probably has also gone a little crazier raising 5 children. Now that I’m raising 6 young children with another on the way, I am very inclined to agree that Mrs. Bennett’s nerves are on edge even without the financial problems.
I do think Jane’s inability to act for herself is a flaw or at least very annoying. I do agree with another comment that Jane seems to suffer from a false humility that keeps her almost helpless. We don’t get to know Bingley as personally, but his haste to leave the woman he had affections for was flawed. He didn’t even bother to ask her about her feelings.
Jane and Bingley are both just boring, haha. And also really easily led by others (Bingley left town without a word because Darcy and his sisters didn't want him to marry Jane, who he's supposedly in love with?! Please 🙄). And Jane has so little confidence about what she actually wants that Bingley doesn't even know for sure she's interested!
I completely agree with the “just boring” comment! I always thought Austen set them up as lightweight foils for Lizzy and Darcy, nothing more. You can definitely tease out some character “deficiencies”, already listed by others in this thread. But I would not go so far as to call them “flaws”.