This is an interesting question. I am currently parent to a new adult, a 16-y-o (Marianne's age), a 14-y-o, and an almost-12-y-o, so I sort of take a sideways approach to it. We have to remember that Marianne's young. It's not about vice or virtue at all, it's about hormones and development. Now of course, vice and virtue come into play, because vice and virtue are developing via hormones and development. But the only way I'm keeping my sanity through the ups and downs of the teen years is to remember that they are fighting a physical battle with a chemical foe, and sometimes I just have to send them to bed and wait for a new day tomorrow. (Can you tell this is what I did with one of mine in the last 24 hours?) First love is always dramatic--and TRAUmatic, when it ends. Marianne took it to an extreme, but girls often do that. It depends on the personality, how public it is. :)
None of that is to let Marianne off the hook. She was pretty self-absorbed through it all. But that, too, is teenagers. It's 100% to her credit that when confronted with Elinor's pain, she examined her conscience and realized she had to make a change. This is what we pray for in our children.
Totally agree that a lot of Marianne's problems are simply due to immaturity. However, Elinor isn't that old, either! I think she offers an example of what happens when a person tries to properly order those emotions. Marianne seems to think it's a flaw NOT to be swept away by them.
I view it less as Marianne's personal vice, and more as what she has learned to reflect from her mother's own behavior. The story frequently compares the two and shows how Mrs. Dashwood does not check her emotions but prefers to let them sweep her along. I am more and more amazed at Elinor's ability to remain mastery over her emotions without being shown the example from her mother. I do think that I envy Marianne and Mrs. Dashwood's comfort in making their feelings known and not hiding them to avoid awkwardness or the possibility of affecting someone else. I was raised to prioritize complete composure and what others might be feeling, over what I was feeling. Without exception. This has made it hard to not dismiss or distrust my own natural feelings.
Marianne is a girl before her time. Getting totally swept away by our feelings is how society currently tells us we should be if we are in love. But her story with Willoughby mirrors so many high school and college romances for me, directly as a result of me believing that *of course* he must want to be with me forever because *how else* could he act that way, only to find out later that I was just dating Willoughby after Willoughby. The older I get, the more I think love without commitment isn't love at all, no matter how much we *feel* it. So I wouldn't say Marianne is an example of virtue taken to an extreme, but more of "what feels good" masquerading as virtue.
The question that kept coming up for me was: Why didn't Elinor and her mother tell Marianne every day something like "If he hasn't proposed, you need to treat him as a suitor who hasn't proposed." It seemed like Elinor and her mom talked about this, but never insisted on Marianne behaving that way. Is it just the personality difference between them that causes the different results? Could Elinor and her mother have said or done something to prevent this result? I am not sure. But what if someone had insisted Marianne not go off with Willoughby unattended on the day they went through his Aunt's home? What if they had been more closely chaperoned?
To answer this question, then, I don't think there is anything wrong with how Marianne does emotions. My guess is that Elinor would like to have a similar breakdown. My belief is that everyone who is in a relationship they value and who is rejected would feel very hurt and want to take to their bed for a couple of weeks. When my second fiance called off the engagement the day before the invitations went in the mail, I took like 10 days off work and laid in bed. I was 35. So I don't think the emotions are the problem.
What I think IS the problem is getting overly attached too quickly to one person. Is this her first suitor? Where did the belief that you have to agree with everything with your partner come from? I suppose anyone with a strong mind and set of beliefs would just ignore contrary advice. So in that sense, she is wrong from the start. She's never going to be able to be in the relationship she idealizes. Life seriously doesn't work that way.
I mean, who decides they are still devasted about Willoughby when they find out what happened with Brandon's ward? He's not a nice guy. She's better off without him. Getting focused on the shiny exterior and whether they have a good speaking voice, when they are rotten at the core, is the wrong question. It will always lead to the wrong answer. So because of that, there was no way for Marianne to succeed. She was wrong from the start.
Christen, I'm so sorry to hear about your broken engagement! It makes sense that you would have grieved so deeply.
I agree with you that Marianne could have possibly avoided much heartache if she had better guidance so that she could develop a more realistic view of courtship and marriage vs being so carried away on her emotions.
I’m so sorry about your engagement! I really appreciate your viewpoint here. And I ABSOLUTELY agree that Mrs. Dashwood should have had more conversations with Marianne about her relationship with Willoughby. There were plenty of conversations with Elinor about Marianne/Willoughby but never any with Marianne!
I think that Elinor DID try to do this and would have been even more explicit about guidance if her mother had allowed it. I think Mrs. Dashwood leaned too far into protecting Marianne's privacy and instead didn't protect her heart at all! And good insights!
I think there is definitely a lack of virtue in Marianne’s lack of ability to overcome her emotions with reason. It could be attributed to some extent to youth, and to parenting--both of which can make lessen her culpability. But I think the whole purpose of the volatile years of the transition from youth to adulthood is to battle the emotions and master them (and the whole reason young people are physically capable of making babies before they are ready to take care of those babies is to learn mastery of those urges) of course true mastery takes a life time, but in order to enter into marriage and family life as a father or mother, you have to be able to control the emotions and the urges. I am not so much referring to the outburst after a heartbreak, as the emotional attachment Marianne allowed herself, and her mother and sister allowed her to have, before she had any real knowledge of Willoughby, and certainly before she had any assurances. I think that girls ought to be taught and encouraged to guard their hearts, and young men to protect the hearts of the girls that they are attracted to. It is the battle they are meant to fight in that time in life. This is also why I think dating-as a state of being (as opposed to dating as a stand alone activity)--should be discouraged until young people are ready to truly consider marriage. Being escorted to a dance by a young man is fraught enough with potential emotion and attachment, without having a steady situation in which attachment is almost impossible to avoid.
Really enjoyed reading so many perspectives and thoughts here; some very wise reflections indeed! I tend to agree with a lot of what has been said about Marianne being culpable to some extent, but deserving some grace at the same time. Her passion and sense of romance, if directed towards a good end/object and balanced with some of Elinor’s prudence, are good things. She unfortunately chose a bad object for her affections and let her feelings get ahead of better judgement, which (as so many pointed out) is an especially adolescent thing to do (though we are all guilty of getting swept away by our emotions at times, even if they aren’t romantic ones). I think she is more culpable in the aftermath (when Willoughby’s faithlessness is revealed and her grief is clearly becoming a danger to her and the others around her) than she is in the initial romance/relationship, because she did genuinely believe her relationship would end in legitimate commitment on his part.
I definitely think that there is a lack of virtue in Marianne’s general behavior up through this point in the story, and that she ought to try to emulate some of Elinor’s reserve, practicality, and thoughtfulness. But there is something to be said for differences in temperament. A world full of Elinors would be a very polite but possibly boring world. I think that objectively Marianne’s approach to life and love through most of the story is problematic, but I don’t think it’s possible or healthy for her to try to be exactly like Elinor. There are also the points brought up in previous posts, such as Marianne’s youth and emotional/hormonal development (although she’s only two years younger than the very level-headed Elinor), the example her mother sets, and Elinor and her mother’s failure to chaperone and counsel her more carefully. Overall I think I have to take a more middle-ground stance about Marianne’s actions, in that she does need to grow in virtue, specifically when it comes to being generous and thoughtful of others and governing her emotions, but she is also acting according to her natural temperament taken to the extreme.
Also, I have a historical/cultural question about the conduct of Elinor and her mother: Because Elinor approached their mother with her concerns about Marianne’s behavior, does that mean it would have been inappropriate during Regency era for those reproaches to come from a sister rather than a parent? In Pride and Prejudice, Lizzy approaches her father with concerns about Lydia’s behavior in much the same way that Elinor does, and in both cases the parents’ failure to heed this advice leads to heartache. Were there stricter expectations around siblings’ interactions at this time?
Such a good point at the end, Bridget. Why couldn't Elinor have spoken to her directly? It seems like Marianne sure wasn't shy about sharing her opinions with Elinor about how Elinor should act.
Elinor does try to speak to Marianne directly- but what 16 year old is going to listen to their 19 year old sister?
And absolutely Mrs. Dashwood should have been more active in helping her daughter be more prudent, but again, there's only so much caution a teenage will accept. Some lessons just end up being learned the hard way.
Definitely agree that there's something to be said for temperament; however, what we DO with our temperaments is our responsibility. Marianne will always be a more emotional person than Elinor--that's not a bad thing! But her commitment to not guard her emotions at all doesn't only hurt Marianne, it hurts those who love her as well.
I will join others here in agreeing that Marianne needs to learn some equanimity and that it would be good for Elinor to learn to more easily share her emotions as well. I'm noticing (again) the lack of strong parenting ~ why is this a theme in Austen's books? Marianne reminds me of Lydia, and her mother reminds me of Mrs. Bennet because she seems to be encouraging Marianne's folly rather than teaching her to behave properly. Elinor reminds me a bit of Jane Bennet in that no one knows what she's thinking.
I do appreciate Marianne's zest for life but think her character weakness in ignoring rules and expectations is what leads to her downfall. She put too much stock in the fun of being romanced by Willoughby and not enough on the practicality of protecting herself until she actually knew him and was assured of his good character. It makes sense that she could get so easily swept away because women in that era had to marry, and hoped to marry well, in order to be taken care of. But Elinor has the same need/desire and is able to work within the societal constraints.
Perhaps Austen is commenting on the rightness of self-discipline vs the consequences of ignoring it.
This is an interesting question. I am currently parent to a new adult, a 16-y-o (Marianne's age), a 14-y-o, and an almost-12-y-o, so I sort of take a sideways approach to it. We have to remember that Marianne's young. It's not about vice or virtue at all, it's about hormones and development. Now of course, vice and virtue come into play, because vice and virtue are developing via hormones and development. But the only way I'm keeping my sanity through the ups and downs of the teen years is to remember that they are fighting a physical battle with a chemical foe, and sometimes I just have to send them to bed and wait for a new day tomorrow. (Can you tell this is what I did with one of mine in the last 24 hours?) First love is always dramatic--and TRAUmatic, when it ends. Marianne took it to an extreme, but girls often do that. It depends on the personality, how public it is. :)
None of that is to let Marianne off the hook. She was pretty self-absorbed through it all. But that, too, is teenagers. It's 100% to her credit that when confronted with Elinor's pain, she examined her conscience and realized she had to make a change. This is what we pray for in our children.
Totally agree that a lot of Marianne's problems are simply due to immaturity. However, Elinor isn't that old, either! I think she offers an example of what happens when a person tries to properly order those emotions. Marianne seems to think it's a flaw NOT to be swept away by them.
I view it less as Marianne's personal vice, and more as what she has learned to reflect from her mother's own behavior. The story frequently compares the two and shows how Mrs. Dashwood does not check her emotions but prefers to let them sweep her along. I am more and more amazed at Elinor's ability to remain mastery over her emotions without being shown the example from her mother. I do think that I envy Marianne and Mrs. Dashwood's comfort in making their feelings known and not hiding them to avoid awkwardness or the possibility of affecting someone else. I was raised to prioritize complete composure and what others might be feeling, over what I was feeling. Without exception. This has made it hard to not dismiss or distrust my own natural feelings.
Definitely! Mrs. Dashwood is a caring mother but didn't do a great job modeling governing one's emotions.
Marianne is a girl before her time. Getting totally swept away by our feelings is how society currently tells us we should be if we are in love. But her story with Willoughby mirrors so many high school and college romances for me, directly as a result of me believing that *of course* he must want to be with me forever because *how else* could he act that way, only to find out later that I was just dating Willoughby after Willoughby. The older I get, the more I think love without commitment isn't love at all, no matter how much we *feel* it. So I wouldn't say Marianne is an example of virtue taken to an extreme, but more of "what feels good" masquerading as virtue.
The question that kept coming up for me was: Why didn't Elinor and her mother tell Marianne every day something like "If he hasn't proposed, you need to treat him as a suitor who hasn't proposed." It seemed like Elinor and her mom talked about this, but never insisted on Marianne behaving that way. Is it just the personality difference between them that causes the different results? Could Elinor and her mother have said or done something to prevent this result? I am not sure. But what if someone had insisted Marianne not go off with Willoughby unattended on the day they went through his Aunt's home? What if they had been more closely chaperoned?
To answer this question, then, I don't think there is anything wrong with how Marianne does emotions. My guess is that Elinor would like to have a similar breakdown. My belief is that everyone who is in a relationship they value and who is rejected would feel very hurt and want to take to their bed for a couple of weeks. When my second fiance called off the engagement the day before the invitations went in the mail, I took like 10 days off work and laid in bed. I was 35. So I don't think the emotions are the problem.
What I think IS the problem is getting overly attached too quickly to one person. Is this her first suitor? Where did the belief that you have to agree with everything with your partner come from? I suppose anyone with a strong mind and set of beliefs would just ignore contrary advice. So in that sense, she is wrong from the start. She's never going to be able to be in the relationship she idealizes. Life seriously doesn't work that way.
I mean, who decides they are still devasted about Willoughby when they find out what happened with Brandon's ward? He's not a nice guy. She's better off without him. Getting focused on the shiny exterior and whether they have a good speaking voice, when they are rotten at the core, is the wrong question. It will always lead to the wrong answer. So because of that, there was no way for Marianne to succeed. She was wrong from the start.
Christen, I'm so sorry to hear about your broken engagement! It makes sense that you would have grieved so deeply.
I agree with you that Marianne could have possibly avoided much heartache if she had better guidance so that she could develop a more realistic view of courtship and marriage vs being so carried away on her emotions.
I’m so sorry about your engagement! I really appreciate your viewpoint here. And I ABSOLUTELY agree that Mrs. Dashwood should have had more conversations with Marianne about her relationship with Willoughby. There were plenty of conversations with Elinor about Marianne/Willoughby but never any with Marianne!
I think that Elinor DID try to do this and would have been even more explicit about guidance if her mother had allowed it. I think Mrs. Dashwood leaned too far into protecting Marianne's privacy and instead didn't protect her heart at all! And good insights!
I think there is definitely a lack of virtue in Marianne’s lack of ability to overcome her emotions with reason. It could be attributed to some extent to youth, and to parenting--both of which can make lessen her culpability. But I think the whole purpose of the volatile years of the transition from youth to adulthood is to battle the emotions and master them (and the whole reason young people are physically capable of making babies before they are ready to take care of those babies is to learn mastery of those urges) of course true mastery takes a life time, but in order to enter into marriage and family life as a father or mother, you have to be able to control the emotions and the urges. I am not so much referring to the outburst after a heartbreak, as the emotional attachment Marianne allowed herself, and her mother and sister allowed her to have, before she had any real knowledge of Willoughby, and certainly before she had any assurances. I think that girls ought to be taught and encouraged to guard their hearts, and young men to protect the hearts of the girls that they are attracted to. It is the battle they are meant to fight in that time in life. This is also why I think dating-as a state of being (as opposed to dating as a stand alone activity)--should be discouraged until young people are ready to truly consider marriage. Being escorted to a dance by a young man is fraught enough with potential emotion and attachment, without having a steady situation in which attachment is almost impossible to avoid.
Really enjoyed reading so many perspectives and thoughts here; some very wise reflections indeed! I tend to agree with a lot of what has been said about Marianne being culpable to some extent, but deserving some grace at the same time. Her passion and sense of romance, if directed towards a good end/object and balanced with some of Elinor’s prudence, are good things. She unfortunately chose a bad object for her affections and let her feelings get ahead of better judgement, which (as so many pointed out) is an especially adolescent thing to do (though we are all guilty of getting swept away by our emotions at times, even if they aren’t romantic ones). I think she is more culpable in the aftermath (when Willoughby’s faithlessness is revealed and her grief is clearly becoming a danger to her and the others around her) than she is in the initial romance/relationship, because she did genuinely believe her relationship would end in legitimate commitment on his part.
I definitely think that there is a lack of virtue in Marianne’s general behavior up through this point in the story, and that she ought to try to emulate some of Elinor’s reserve, practicality, and thoughtfulness. But there is something to be said for differences in temperament. A world full of Elinors would be a very polite but possibly boring world. I think that objectively Marianne’s approach to life and love through most of the story is problematic, but I don’t think it’s possible or healthy for her to try to be exactly like Elinor. There are also the points brought up in previous posts, such as Marianne’s youth and emotional/hormonal development (although she’s only two years younger than the very level-headed Elinor), the example her mother sets, and Elinor and her mother’s failure to chaperone and counsel her more carefully. Overall I think I have to take a more middle-ground stance about Marianne’s actions, in that she does need to grow in virtue, specifically when it comes to being generous and thoughtful of others and governing her emotions, but she is also acting according to her natural temperament taken to the extreme.
Also, I have a historical/cultural question about the conduct of Elinor and her mother: Because Elinor approached their mother with her concerns about Marianne’s behavior, does that mean it would have been inappropriate during Regency era for those reproaches to come from a sister rather than a parent? In Pride and Prejudice, Lizzy approaches her father with concerns about Lydia’s behavior in much the same way that Elinor does, and in both cases the parents’ failure to heed this advice leads to heartache. Were there stricter expectations around siblings’ interactions at this time?
Such a good point at the end, Bridget. Why couldn't Elinor have spoken to her directly? It seems like Marianne sure wasn't shy about sharing her opinions with Elinor about how Elinor should act.
Elinor does try to speak to Marianne directly- but what 16 year old is going to listen to their 19 year old sister?
And absolutely Mrs. Dashwood should have been more active in helping her daughter be more prudent, but again, there's only so much caution a teenage will accept. Some lessons just end up being learned the hard way.
Definitely agree that there's something to be said for temperament; however, what we DO with our temperaments is our responsibility. Marianne will always be a more emotional person than Elinor--that's not a bad thing! But her commitment to not guard her emotions at all doesn't only hurt Marianne, it hurts those who love her as well.
I will join others here in agreeing that Marianne needs to learn some equanimity and that it would be good for Elinor to learn to more easily share her emotions as well. I'm noticing (again) the lack of strong parenting ~ why is this a theme in Austen's books? Marianne reminds me of Lydia, and her mother reminds me of Mrs. Bennet because she seems to be encouraging Marianne's folly rather than teaching her to behave properly. Elinor reminds me a bit of Jane Bennet in that no one knows what she's thinking.
I do appreciate Marianne's zest for life but think her character weakness in ignoring rules and expectations is what leads to her downfall. She put too much stock in the fun of being romanced by Willoughby and not enough on the practicality of protecting herself until she actually knew him and was assured of his good character. It makes sense that she could get so easily swept away because women in that era had to marry, and hoped to marry well, in order to be taken care of. But Elinor has the same need/desire and is able to work within the societal constraints.
Perhaps Austen is commenting on the rightness of self-discipline vs the consequences of ignoring it.