Mansfield Park absolutely does not deserve its reputation as boring. Mansfield Park suffers in our estimation because we live in a hyper-stimulated that values “girl boss” and extroverted heroes over the introverted, pious, and moral Fanny Price. Moderns can admire Elizabeth’s wit, Marianne’s passion, and Emma’s scheming and brush off/pay less attention the moral journeys these characters undergo. Fanny is morality and piety without any of the social or personal charms/characteristics other Austen characters have. We can’t ignore the fact that she is meant to be a moral measuring stick in this novel, and we find that her moral sense is a lot more robust than ours. And so many dislike her and call her a “prig.” Or those who admire her moral sense are irritated by the way she seems to let others walk all over her and generally refuses to call her family members out for their mistreatment and mistakes. She truly “turns the other cheek” and is a meek soul, who, by the end of the novel, “inherits the earth.” But again, in a society in which our virtues must be signaled over social media, where we have a moral duty to loudly “cancel” anyone who sins against the code of whatever tribe we identify with (right or left), Fanny’s approach seems unattractive if not outright repugnant.
Tbf I think most of us kind of also hate the virtue signaling moralists of today. 😂😂 but I think you’ve touched on a real raw spot in our fallen condition, which is that nobody likes to hear about someone more virtuous than they are (like Emma and Jane Fairfax!)
I do agree with the comments above that people think this book is boring because Fanny isn’t spunky, whereas the other Jane books (and so much literature for girls and young women in general) has spunky heroines.
But, to take a slightly more sympathetic view of those in the “this is the boring one” camp, the other thing missing from this book is a character arc for Fanny. She doesn’t really learn or grow here, she just gets vindicated for always having been very good. I don’t have a real problem with it because I think the story itself is great and as a study of the virtue of Constance (thank you Haley!) it’s so good - but I don’t think it’s entirely unfair that people pick it up expecting some sort of emotional or moral hero’s journey for Fanny and are disappointed not to find it.
I (re)read this book TOTALLY differently, however, after reading in Haley’s book the BRILLIANT insight that the person with the compelling character arc is *edmund*. Puts the whole thing in a different light.
That’s a really good point about the character arc. Edmund has to be my least favorite Austen heroine and that’s probably because he comes off as so in need of improvement in a way that’s very different from Mr. Darcy (who is always faithful to Elizabeth).
That actually doesn’t bother me so much! Especially after Emma and sense and sensibility (spoiler alert) where the male romantic leads are basically moral exemplars who the (much younger) heroines need to learn from and emulate, it’s a bit refreshing to have one where the male lead learns from the heroine!
Jul 9, 2023·edited Jul 9, 2023Liked by Haley Stewart
@Haley I hope you enjoy your time….well not *off* because you’ll be quite busy, but away from the newsletter. Thank you for setting a great example for us of how to edit your commitments when you need (and don’t we always need?) to prioritise your family and your ability to remain a happy, level, not-completely-exhausted person. (tho I don’t think I’ll ever recover from the end of FOC. I pray that one day, when you and Christy are empty nesters living in luxury off your royalties from casting British period dramas, you’ll resurrect it 😂)
I always loved Fanny for her sweetness, and her constancy, (though I wouldn’t have used that word before--it suits her perfectly)--which is so different from today’s “girl boss” characters (to borrow from Elise above). I have also been so bothered by the movie version that is most recent (I think) because it has a couple of awful scenes--so awful I can’t justify watching it with the young people in my house. I am sitting here wondering if this is just a modern effort to make Fanny more palatable--through in the s*x to give it a certain rating? I realize the scenes are not her scenes, but still. Anyway, all that to say, are there any other movie versions? My daughter and I will be listening to MP next (after we finish P&P) and I would love to have a movie to watch when we are done.
The only films I've seen are the 1999 film with Frances O'Connor and the 2007 with Billie Piper. I didn't love either one, sadly. But I did create a dream cast of it. Maybe I should share that for fun this week!
Okay, so the 1999 one is the one I am remembering--with what I remember as shocking scenes. I think I saw the Billie Piper one, but I don't really remember it. When I checked the parent review notes on IMDB it looked okay. It would be fun to do some reviews of the movies as we go through the books. Also, dream casts would be fun to share!
So the comment above is me, I was just logged into the family Substack when I made it. One more thing, there is a British author I love who wrote a story that “borrows” from Mansfield Park--Celia’s House by DE Stevenson. I recommend all her books (her cousin is Robert Louis Stevenson)!
Also going to miss Endeavour desperately! I really liked the finale (I was afraid I wouldn't) and I actually said "Mind how you go" to my husband yesterday morning when he left for work :-D It was a joke but I may adopt it in honor of Fred! I have recently discovered the Sister Boniface Mysteries, which is a spinoff of Father Brown and after two episodes I absolutely love it. I think you might too!
Now, Mansfield Park. I do not think it's boring, but I was struck in rereading it by the framing of marriage and how it's different than in Austen's other "marriage plot" novels (and full disclosure, I know those ones better, this book club was only my second reading of Mansfield Park ever and it had been almost two decades since the first reading) In both P&P and S&S, I think Austen has a lot to say on, respectively, the nature of marriage and the nature of love. Emma doesn't have quite the same focus but marriage is still important; it begins with Miss Taylor's marriage, Emma's penchant for matchmaking, etc. In Mansfield Park, Fanny loves Edmund and we learn this early on, but marrying him is almost too much to hope for and it's not presented as the reason for her virtue OR her other choices. I had forgotten (and was frankly surprised by) how late in the novel Edmund returns Fanny's affections and how their engagement and marriage are almost afterthoughts in the last few pages. I do think the theme of virtue is a great one for understanding this novel, and I think a novel that shows development of virtue or lack thereof is going to be primarily interior, rather than exterior, and therefore "slower" in tempo. Overall though, I loved Mansfield Park and this discussion made me so glad I re-read it and I learned a lot through our discussions! Thanks for hosting them Haley!
I do have one remaining question with the book: keeping all in mind, how should a Christian family respond to Maria’s infidelity? Did the Bertrams act well, or poorly, on that account?
For a slice of life about a young woman growing up in a leisurely manor house, this was downright thrilling!
Constance is precisely the word that describes Fanny most well, it is well used. And, I think her lack of major character growth is what gives this story it’s strength -- without her remaining true to her convictions, where is the tension? It’s such a unique take on a character and is refreshing to read.
I loved Mansfield Park, particularly the timidity of Fanny’s character and the firm but deeply tender love of Sir Thomas towards her. Both serve as such a moral contrast to the inconstancy of the other characters. I have to say, though, that the more recent BBC adaptation (pictured here) as well as the movie were so disappointing because they so drastically altered the characters. The BBC adaptation shows Fanny as feisty and defiant, which is all well and good in a stand-alone character, but a total adulteration of Austen’s Fanny Price. And the 1999 film added in sordid details about the family plantation that were not in the novel. I just can’t stand when adaptations do this. It’s such a step beyond taking creative liberties to make the story more screen-friendly, it takes away from the entire heart of the story. Just had to vent that, sorry 😂😅
I think all virtues overlap in some way and are impossible to fully possess without possession of other virtues. For instance, you can't be just if you are a liar. You can't be truly brave without prudence (or you may simply be rash or reckless). But I think constancy is more than the degree to which you have a certain virtue. I think of it as the strong tower that protects the self from the arrows of temptation. If you are constant, you are true to yourself--you are strong enough to withstand pressure. I think it's also connected to faithfulness and loyalty.
Mansfield Park absolutely does not deserve its reputation as boring. Mansfield Park suffers in our estimation because we live in a hyper-stimulated that values “girl boss” and extroverted heroes over the introverted, pious, and moral Fanny Price. Moderns can admire Elizabeth’s wit, Marianne’s passion, and Emma’s scheming and brush off/pay less attention the moral journeys these characters undergo. Fanny is morality and piety without any of the social or personal charms/characteristics other Austen characters have. We can’t ignore the fact that she is meant to be a moral measuring stick in this novel, and we find that her moral sense is a lot more robust than ours. And so many dislike her and call her a “prig.” Or those who admire her moral sense are irritated by the way she seems to let others walk all over her and generally refuses to call her family members out for their mistreatment and mistakes. She truly “turns the other cheek” and is a meek soul, who, by the end of the novel, “inherits the earth.” But again, in a society in which our virtues must be signaled over social media, where we have a moral duty to loudly “cancel” anyone who sins against the code of whatever tribe we identify with (right or left), Fanny’s approach seems unattractive if not outright repugnant.
Tbf I think most of us kind of also hate the virtue signaling moralists of today. 😂😂 but I think you’ve touched on a real raw spot in our fallen condition, which is that nobody likes to hear about someone more virtuous than they are (like Emma and Jane Fairfax!)
I do agree with the comments above that people think this book is boring because Fanny isn’t spunky, whereas the other Jane books (and so much literature for girls and young women in general) has spunky heroines.
But, to take a slightly more sympathetic view of those in the “this is the boring one” camp, the other thing missing from this book is a character arc for Fanny. She doesn’t really learn or grow here, she just gets vindicated for always having been very good. I don’t have a real problem with it because I think the story itself is great and as a study of the virtue of Constance (thank you Haley!) it’s so good - but I don’t think it’s entirely unfair that people pick it up expecting some sort of emotional or moral hero’s journey for Fanny and are disappointed not to find it.
I (re)read this book TOTALLY differently, however, after reading in Haley’s book the BRILLIANT insight that the person with the compelling character arc is *edmund*. Puts the whole thing in a different light.
That’s a really good point about the character arc. Edmund has to be my least favorite Austen heroine and that’s probably because he comes off as so in need of improvement in a way that’s very different from Mr. Darcy (who is always faithful to Elizabeth).
Hero not heroine lol
That actually doesn’t bother me so much! Especially after Emma and sense and sensibility (spoiler alert) where the male romantic leads are basically moral exemplars who the (much younger) heroines need to learn from and emulate, it’s a bit refreshing to have one where the male lead learns from the heroine!
@Haley I hope you enjoy your time….well not *off* because you’ll be quite busy, but away from the newsletter. Thank you for setting a great example for us of how to edit your commitments when you need (and don’t we always need?) to prioritise your family and your ability to remain a happy, level, not-completely-exhausted person. (tho I don’t think I’ll ever recover from the end of FOC. I pray that one day, when you and Christy are empty nesters living in luxury off your royalties from casting British period dramas, you’ll resurrect it 😂)
Oh my gosh casting period dramas, lol! Our true calling! Thanks, Elizabeth.
I always loved Fanny for her sweetness, and her constancy, (though I wouldn’t have used that word before--it suits her perfectly)--which is so different from today’s “girl boss” characters (to borrow from Elise above). I have also been so bothered by the movie version that is most recent (I think) because it has a couple of awful scenes--so awful I can’t justify watching it with the young people in my house. I am sitting here wondering if this is just a modern effort to make Fanny more palatable--through in the s*x to give it a certain rating? I realize the scenes are not her scenes, but still. Anyway, all that to say, are there any other movie versions? My daughter and I will be listening to MP next (after we finish P&P) and I would love to have a movie to watch when we are done.
The only films I've seen are the 1999 film with Frances O'Connor and the 2007 with Billie Piper. I didn't love either one, sadly. But I did create a dream cast of it. Maybe I should share that for fun this week!
Okay, so the 1999 one is the one I am remembering--with what I remember as shocking scenes. I think I saw the Billie Piper one, but I don't really remember it. When I checked the parent review notes on IMDB it looked okay. It would be fun to do some reviews of the movies as we go through the books. Also, dream casts would be fun to share!
So the comment above is me, I was just logged into the family Substack when I made it. One more thing, there is a British author I love who wrote a story that “borrows” from Mansfield Park--Celia’s House by DE Stevenson. I recommend all her books (her cousin is Robert Louis Stevenson)!
WOOF I have not seen that one. Might have to give it a hate watch.
Hope you enjoy your trips this month, Haley!
Thanks, Thomas! It’s always a little crazy getting everything set up at home before back to back trips, but these will be fun.
Also going to miss Endeavour desperately! I really liked the finale (I was afraid I wouldn't) and I actually said "Mind how you go" to my husband yesterday morning when he left for work :-D It was a joke but I may adopt it in honor of Fred! I have recently discovered the Sister Boniface Mysteries, which is a spinoff of Father Brown and after two episodes I absolutely love it. I think you might too!
Now, Mansfield Park. I do not think it's boring, but I was struck in rereading it by the framing of marriage and how it's different than in Austen's other "marriage plot" novels (and full disclosure, I know those ones better, this book club was only my second reading of Mansfield Park ever and it had been almost two decades since the first reading) In both P&P and S&S, I think Austen has a lot to say on, respectively, the nature of marriage and the nature of love. Emma doesn't have quite the same focus but marriage is still important; it begins with Miss Taylor's marriage, Emma's penchant for matchmaking, etc. In Mansfield Park, Fanny loves Edmund and we learn this early on, but marrying him is almost too much to hope for and it's not presented as the reason for her virtue OR her other choices. I had forgotten (and was frankly surprised by) how late in the novel Edmund returns Fanny's affections and how their engagement and marriage are almost afterthoughts in the last few pages. I do think the theme of virtue is a great one for understanding this novel, and I think a novel that shows development of virtue or lack thereof is going to be primarily interior, rather than exterior, and therefore "slower" in tempo. Overall though, I loved Mansfield Park and this discussion made me so glad I re-read it and I learned a lot through our discussions! Thanks for hosting them Haley!
I do have one remaining question with the book: keeping all in mind, how should a Christian family respond to Maria’s infidelity? Did the Bertrams act well, or poorly, on that account?
For a slice of life about a young woman growing up in a leisurely manor house, this was downright thrilling!
Constance is precisely the word that describes Fanny most well, it is well used. And, I think her lack of major character growth is what gives this story it’s strength -- without her remaining true to her convictions, where is the tension? It’s such a unique take on a character and is refreshing to read.
I loved Mansfield Park, particularly the timidity of Fanny’s character and the firm but deeply tender love of Sir Thomas towards her. Both serve as such a moral contrast to the inconstancy of the other characters. I have to say, though, that the more recent BBC adaptation (pictured here) as well as the movie were so disappointing because they so drastically altered the characters. The BBC adaptation shows Fanny as feisty and defiant, which is all well and good in a stand-alone character, but a total adulteration of Austen’s Fanny Price. And the 1999 film added in sordid details about the family plantation that were not in the novel. I just can’t stand when adaptations do this. It’s such a step beyond taking creative liberties to make the story more screen-friendly, it takes away from the entire heart of the story. Just had to vent that, sorry 😂😅
I think all virtues overlap in some way and are impossible to fully possess without possession of other virtues. For instance, you can't be just if you are a liar. You can't be truly brave without prudence (or you may simply be rash or reckless). But I think constancy is more than the degree to which you have a certain virtue. I think of it as the strong tower that protects the self from the arrows of temptation. If you are constant, you are true to yourself--you are strong enough to withstand pressure. I think it's also connected to faithfulness and loyalty.